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ShnickyShnack · 2005-11-07 3:54 pm

Bush says America "doesn't torture," yet supports VP's efforts to overturn Senate moves to ban torture

Bush was asked about reports that the CIA was separately maintaining secret prisons in eastern Europe and Asia to interrogate al-Qaida suspects � and demands by the International Red Cross for access to them.

Without confirming or denying the existence of such prisons, Bush said, "Our country is at war, and our government has the obligation to protect the American people."

He pointedly noted that Congress shares that responsibility with the administration.

"We are finding terrorists and bringing them to justice. We are gathering information about where the terrorists may be hiding. We are trying to disrupt their plots and plans. Anything we do ... to that end in this effort, any activity we conduct, is within the law. We do not torture," Bush said.

Bush supported an effort spearheaded by Vice President Dick Cheney to block or modify a proposed Senate-passed ban on torture.

"We're working with Congress to make sure that as we go forward, we make it possible, more possible, to do our job," Bush said. "There's an enemy that lurks and plots and plans and wants to hurt America again. And so, you bet we will aggressively pursue them. But we will do so under the law."

What the hell is there even left to say anymore?

Ribtorus · 2005-11-07 4:17 pm

What the hell is there even left to say anymore?

That once legislation passes that allows evidence gotten by torture into a court, civil or military, then America will officially be a torture-state.

[Jack McFarland]Very Soviet...very '70's South American generalissimo...very 'stan-ish ::swish::[/Jack McFarland]

Troutski · 2005-11-07 4:28 pm

Did I just wake up as Gregor Sampsa? This statement by Bush is just so bizarre. I like how yahoo juxtaposed Cheney asking for a CIA torture exemption just two paragraphs later.

more or less · 2005-11-07 4:29 pm

torture is the symbol of a freedom and peace loving nation.

ShnickyShnack · 2005-11-07 4:39 pm

Troutski wrote:
Did I just wake up as Gregor Sampsa? This statement by Bush is just so bizarre. I like how yahoo juxtaposed Cheney asking for a CIA torture exemption just two paragraphs later.

Actually I reversed Yahoo's lineup, putting the "we don't torture" at the top, followed by the "let us torture" later on. In the original article they had it kind of reversed.

more or less · 2005-11-07 4:42 pm

i guess that really depends on how torture is defined, a point that seems to escape you my canadian friend. i do agree that fighting over its definition is a very telling point, however.

i am more concerned with the unlawful detention, than i am the nature of the interrogations.

Last edited by more or less (2005-11-07 4:42 pm)

StaticAge · 2005-11-07 4:53 pm

The more we abuse or are creative with language, the better a society we will have. Right and wrong, good and bad... such judgemental sounding words! All that matters is legal and illegal (for now), relax, sit back down, and have a beer and watch Family Guy, the lawyers will take care of the rest.

more or less · 2005-11-07 5:00 pm

eventually, the new speak will be perfected!

treehouse · 2005-11-07 5:02 pm

StaticAge wrote:
The more we abuse or are creative with language, the better a society we will have. Right and wrong, good and bad... such judgemental sounding words! All that matters is legal and illegal (for now), relax, sit back down, and have a beer and watch Family Guy, the lawyers will take care of the rest.

Confucius was once asked by his pupils what he would do first if he had the power to arrange the affairs of the country. He answered: "I should certainly see to it that language is used properly."
The pupils looked puzzled. "Surely," they said, "this is a small matter. Why do you say it is so important ?"
The wise man replied: "If language is not used correctly, then what is said is not meant. If what is said is not what is meant, then what ought to be done remains undone. If this remains undone, morals and art will be corrupted. If morals and art are corrupted, justice will go astray and the people will stand about in helpless confusion."
The Analects of Confucius, Chapter 13
A Complete Treasury of Stories for Public Speakers, p. 254
Morris Mandel

JakeTheTall · 2005-11-07 5:34 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
What the hell is there even left to say anymore?

I noticed that contradictory message to.

nope

Pariah · 2005-11-07 5:37 pm

The USA is basically a third world country with a really fantastic economy.

ShnickyShnack · 2005-11-07 5:42 pm

It's not the fact that secret prisons and torture are happening, that's nothing new. It's the idea that an American president just can't bring himself to condemn torture that freaks me out.

Ribtorus · 2005-11-07 5:44 pm

If Bush condemns torture too explicitely, he's going against policy, going against Cheney, and thus going against his masters. What choice does a sock puppet really have?

XYZ · 2005-11-07 5:44 pm

Has anyone trotted out euphamisms? How about "interrogation", or, even better, "consultation"?

XYZ · 2005-11-07 5:45 pm

Ribtorus wrote:
If Bush condemns torture too explicitely, he's going against policy, going against Cheney, and thus going against his masters. What choice does a sock puppet really have?

To do what his administration has done from the beginning. Say one thing and do the opposite while the media pretends to care so the masses will do nothing.

Last edited by XYZ (2005-11-07 5:46 pm)

ShnickyShnack · 2005-11-07 5:45 pm

Ribtorus wrote:
If Bush condemns torture too explicitely, he's going against policy, going against Cheney, and thus going against his masters. What choice does a sock puppet really have?

I continue to rate him more highly than that. But I do think it's clear he's fallen into a twisted-ass mindset and can't get up.

more or less · 2005-11-07 5:45 pm

i believe they like to call it "softening" prior to interrogation.

XYZ · 2005-11-07 5:49 pm

Ah. I was thinking of the torture + the detention. Hmm...

Softening, eh? You can't do much better than that. I have visions of the Charmin bear and comfy pillows on a bed at night. Aahh...

But, consultation, if you're talking about the whole package, takes away that naughty manipulation connotation softening carries. Another quibble is the way meat is softened by beating it. Maybe I should apply for a job? Who's the person running the overseas propaganda ministry? Her name was mentioned at one point. Karen Hughes?

Last edited by XYZ (2005-11-07 5:55 pm)

more or less · 2005-11-07 5:49 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
Ribtorus wrote:
If Bush condemns torture too explicitely, he's going against policy, going against Cheney, and thus going against his masters. What choice does a sock puppet really have?
I continue to rate him more highly than that. But I do think it's clear he's fallen into a twisted-ass mindset and can't get up.

fallen? fallen from WHAT? you are quite nutty.

more or less · 2005-11-07 6:02 pm

XYZ wrote:
Ah. I was thinking of the torture + the detention. Hmm...

Softening, eh? You can't do much better than that. I have visions of the Charmin bear and comfy pillows on a bed at night. Aahh...

But, consultation, if you're talking about the whole package, takes away that naughty manipulation connotation softening carries. Another quibble is the way meat is softened by beating it. Maybe I should apply for a job? Who's the person running the overseas propaganda ministry? Her name was mentioned at one point. Karen Hughes?

wtf? hughes is just a talking head.

its a policy directive from cheney and rummsfeld and the evil HQ, aka the pentagon, with the blessings of alberto gonzolez and some guy they hired to actually draft the thing. what we would call torture they call "stress and duress" situations in order to "soften" the resolve of the detainees.

this is all very old news, btw. its just now the senate seems to want to make the policy legal as some form of CYA, afaik. its partisan log-rolling, with the slight hint of either paranoia or fascism.

prolly both.

Last edited by more or less (2005-11-07 6:03 pm)

Duke Stratosphere · 2005-11-07 6:33 pm

Pariah wrote:
The USA is basically a third world country with a really fantastic economy.

When you think about it, that's exactly true. Bunch of smurfing redneck hillbillies is what they (:cough:) I mean we are. shrug

Duke Stratosphere · 2005-11-07 6:36 pm

XYZ wrote:
Ah. I was thinking of the torture + the detention. Hmm...

Softening, eh? You can't do much better than that. I have visions of the Charmin bear and comfy pillows on a bed at night. Aahh...

Hey, I'm not in favor of torture at all. Don't get me wrong or anything. wink I'm in favor of having all the gay guys in the military have sex with these miscreants and get that vital information about imminent terrorist activities with some gay Muslim "pillow talk." wink Get on that, willya, XYZ?

Last edited by Duke Stratosphere (2005-11-07 6:37 pm)

Pariah · 2005-11-07 6:51 pm

Duke Stratosphere wrote:
Pariah wrote:
The USA is basically a third world country with a really fantastic economy.
When you think about it, that's exactly true. Bunch of smurfing redneck hillbillies is what they (:cough:) I mean we are.

Toss in primitive superstitious religionists and we agree.

Duke Stratosphere · 2005-11-07 6:58 pm

Pariah wrote:
Duke Stratosphere wrote:
Pariah wrote:
The USA is basically a third world country with a really fantastic economy.
When you think about it, that's exactly true. Bunch of smurfing redneck hillbillies is what they (:cough:) I mean we are.
Toss in primitive superstitious religionists and we agree.

lol OK, then, I've seen more than enough evidence of that. lol Toss it on in there. lol

ShnickyShnack · 2005-11-07 7:03 pm

Duke Stratosphere wrote:
Pariah wrote:
Duke Stratosphere wrote:

When you think about it, that's exactly true. Bunch of smurfing redneck hillbillies is what they (:cough:) I mean we are.
Toss in primitive superstitious religionists and we agree.
OK, then, I've seen more than enough evidence of that. Toss it on in there.

Yeah, but you guys are really fun to be around!

Forums | MacLife

#1 2005-11-07 3:54 pm

"We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#2 2005-11-07 4:17 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#3 2005-11-07 4:28 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#4 2005-11-07 4:29 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#5 2005-11-07 4:39 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Troutski wrote:

#6 2005-11-07 4:42 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#7 2005-11-07 4:53 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#8 2005-11-07 5:00 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#9 2005-11-07 5:02 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

StaticAge wrote:

#10 2005-11-07 5:34 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#11 2005-11-07 5:37 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#12 2005-11-07 5:42 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#13 2005-11-07 5:44 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#14 2005-11-07 5:44 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#15 2005-11-07 5:45 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Ribtorus wrote:

#16 2005-11-07 5:45 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Ribtorus wrote:

#17 2005-11-07 5:45 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#18 2005-11-07 5:49 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

#19 2005-11-07 5:49 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Ribtorus wrote:

#20 2005-11-07 6:02 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

XYZ wrote:

#21 2005-11-07 6:33 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Pariah wrote:

#22 2005-11-07 6:36 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

XYZ wrote:

#23 2005-11-07 6:51 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

Pariah wrote:

#24 2005-11-07 6:58 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Pariah wrote:

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

Pariah wrote:

#25 2005-11-07 7:03 pm

Re: "We don't torture ... but don't prevent us from torturing!"

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

Pariah wrote:

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

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