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[off topic]you're in rochester too? wow. there are more of us.[/off topic]
(on topic) meh.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this yet.  A number of people have said this move to intel is about market share, but I think the yellow box is a key part of it.

To start with, what you're describing isn't the yellow box.  You have it backwards.  The yellow box didn't allow Intel based Rhapsody to run Windows apps.  It allowed Windows to run apps written for Intel-based Rhapsody. http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/boxes.shtml  (The environment to run Windows apps on Linux or BSD is Wine.)

Think of it this way: Steve doesn't want to implement a box wherein developers code everything for Windows and then expect people to just run the Windows version on the Mac.  That would kill Mac in the long run.  Plus, a box of that sort will make the Mac much more vulnerable to Windows-based malware.  This is why I'm not sure if we'll ever see an Apple sponsored implementation of Wine - at least not anytime soon.  It would weaken Apple.

Instead I expect Steve *will* implement the yellow box.  And the yellow box will be a free download for users of Windows.  That will allow people on Windows to run Mac software.  He'll try to sell it to developers as "write once (for Mac) and run it anywhere."  Then you can market it to consumers: "Your software was written for Mac - why don't you own one?  Your software will run in its native environment, and you'll be much more secure."

I guess a pertinent question here is: which is easier - coding for Windows or Mac?  Right now, most software developers probably feel more comfortable coding for Windows.  But if they can be convincedd its easier to code for Mac (and notice how much Apple has been trying to get its developers to switch to XCode - Apple's been dissing Metrowerks for a while - maybe they didn't think it was a good enough reason to get developers to switch) then Apple can more easily make the case for developers to write for Mac and run in emulation on the PC.

Anyway, back to the assumption that this is all about market share.  Then, once (if) market share reaches some critical threshold, the restraints will come off and clones will be licensed.  Some have already talked of HP rumors.  Then Apple becomes the Borg.  Wahoo

BTW: as I start to put all these boxes together, I think maybe this has been part of Steve's plan from the beginning.  Maybe Marklar wasn't a backup, but was the endpoint.  When he came back to apple, asking people to make 2 transitions at once: from PPC to Intel and Classic to X was far too much.  So he rode PPC as far as he could and started building the foundation.  XCode was a key part of that. If everything had to be recoded, too many developers would be lost.  XCode helps protect against that. 

My thought at the time (1997) was that the yellow box was to run Rhapsody software on Windows, but now I just noticed something in the LowEndMac article:  it very specifically says software written for Rhapsody on Intel. But Rhapsody on Intel is only just now being released.  Yes, we will see a yellow box.  I'll be shocked if we don't.

OK ... really starting to put the conspiracy theories together here:  http://www.drunkenbatman.com/drunkenblo … 00257.html

This is from 2004.

About 1/3 down the page, the guy starts talking about Mac on x86 and what developers would bring back from Rhapsody., "What I'm throwing out there, after talking to a lot of developers, is that they bring back one aspect of it: the ability to port your app, with a minimum of fuss, to other platforms by choosing to use Apples Development tools and OSX (hence, mac hardware) as your development platform."

Later, he says, "...if they could develop on Mac OSX with their beautiful frameworks and support Mac, Linux and Windows with a minimum of per-platform hassle, you'd really, really have something."

lotrfan wrote:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this yet.  A number of people have said this move to intel is about market share, but I think the yellow box is a key part of it.

To start with, what you're describing isn't the yellow box.  You have it backwards.  The yellow box didn't allow Intel based Rhapsody to run Windows apps.  It allowed Windows to run apps written for Intel-based Rhapsody. http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/boxes.shtml  (The environment to run Windows apps on Linux or BSD is Wine.)

I've been mentioning WINE a lot, basically it's a double edged sword. Now, Apple has a number of things that it can do. What they might choose to do is prevent WINE from running on OS X. (Security patches etc that stop WINE from working) While having Yellow box on Windows. Now, if Apple stops WINE then it means that ppl won't be able to use Windows apps in OS X thus, with the help of yellow box, lure developers. If MS tried to pull the same stunt with Apple by blocking them out, they can be pulled up for anti competitiveness. However, Apple can block WINE as it is from the Open-source community. (As harsh as that may seem)

Either way, it will be interesting to see where this all goes.

reece_james wrote:

lotrfan wrote:

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned this yet.  A number of people have said this move to intel is about market share, but I think the yellow box is a key part of it.

To start with, what you're describing isn't the yellow box.  You have it backwards.  The yellow box didn't allow Intel based Rhapsody to run Windows apps.  It allowed Windows to run apps written for Intel-based Rhapsody. http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/boxes.shtml  (The environment to run Windows apps on Linux or BSD is Wine.)

I've been mentioning WINE a lot, basically it's a double edged sword. Now, Apple has a number of things that it can do. What they might choose to do is prevent WINE from running on OS X. (Security patches etc that stop WINE from working) While having Yellow box on Windows. Now, if Apple stops WINE then it means that ppl won't be able to use Windows apps in OS X thus, with the help of yellow box, lure developers. If MS tried to pull the same stunt with Apple by blocking them out, they can be pulled up for anti competitiveness. However, Apple can block WINE as it is from the Open-source community. (As harsh as that may seem)

Either way, it will be interesting to see where this all goes.

I don't think Apple would attempt to stop Wine at all.  WINE only appeals to a small fraction of the Market - computer geeks.  Most end users just want something That Just Works.   I doubt the majority of users who visit this forum (implying the majority of the forum members are power users) are going to go download the Darwin Ports version of WINE, when it is available, just to play Duke Nukem Forever.

Just to clear things up here, I want someone to tell me what the boxes are now that this is all happening.

I'm pretty sure one of those boxes is Rosetta or Universal Binary or something, but I'm not quite sure.

I read the link from up top, but I'm still confused.

Shadowless wrote:

Just to clear things up here, I want someone to tell me what the boxes are now that this is all happening.

I'm pretty sure one of those boxes is Rosetta or Universal Binary or something, but I'm not quite sure.

I read the link from up top, but I'm still confused.

OK, here goes.

Back in the day, when Apple first bought NeXT.  The NeXT OS (called OPENSTEP all-caps) used to run on Intel chips only.  This was different than NeXTSTEP, which was older.

They were merging the Mac OS with OPENSTEP to create what was then called Rhapsody.  It was the modern OS of everyone's dreams, and had HUGE compatibility, which were called "Boxes."

Anyways, there were code names for various compatibility layers.  There was the Blue Box, which was running the Mac OS (think OS X Classic environment).  It actually ran the OS in separate window (just like VPC does Windows).

There was also the Yellow Box, which was "native" code.  It is now called Cocoa.

At the same time this OS was being developed, they announced plans that the Yellow Box would not only exist on Windows, but the Rhapsody OS itself would run on Intel chips.  With the Yellow Box on Windows, a developer could theoretically write one app, and have it run on Windows and the new Mac OS (Rhapsody).

As for the Rhapsody OS on Intel, the only difference was going to be the Blue Box was missing, and it was only going to run on PPC systems (Mac OS clones still existed at this point).

Rhapsody was actually released as Mac OS X Server 1.0 (green box with a big S made of gears on it - I have a copy).

Rhapsody was never released on Intel chips, and the Yellow Box for Windows project was canned by Steve.